Bringing the Good News to Kids in Public School/How to Wisely Invest Your Time and Money in Your Family

John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge you and encourage you in your faith journey.
Corey Pennypacker: Get them involved in Bible to School, get them involved in a youth group, get them involved in church. Really foster those Christian friends, foster those Christian adults around them, and you've got a strong Christian that can light up the world.
John Fuller: Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we're going to hear about a rather unique ministry that is bringing the Gospel of Christ to young children in public school. I'm John Fuller and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: John, one of the most amazing things about Jesus was His love for children. There was something special between children and the Lord. I think part of it is children are just innocent, right? They don't know. They tell the truth. "You're fat! You're skinny!" I mean, kids just say the straightforward thing. I think the Lord saw that as just little truth-tellers and their hearts are pure. I just think the Lord had a heart for children. In fact, in Matthew 18, He said, "Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven," which has often made me think, how do children think that the Lord would make that statement? If you act like a child, the kingdom of heaven is yours. I think that's part of it, what I just said. Unfortunately, I think it's easy for parents to underestimate the value of their children and their ability to understand scripture and to apply biblical truth. I think it starts at an early age and our guest today is going to talk to us about how effective we can be as Christians helping our own children, but also children in public school, to recognize their spiritual bent.
John Fuller: It's really exciting to talk about this. I think a lot of people don't know what you can really do in a public school. We're very pleased to have Corey Pennypacker in the studio with us. She's the CEO of Bible to School, and they equip communities to provide free Bible classes to elementary school kids during their public school day. She's recently come out with a great book called *Backpack Faith: Helping Your Child Live Confidently for Jesus in Public School*. Of course, we'll have more details at the website.
Jim Daly: Corey, welcome to Focus on the Family.
Corey Pennypacker: Thank you for having me.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you, that's legal?
Corey Pennypacker: Yes, that is legal.
Jim Daly: How does that work?
Corey Pennypacker: It's called something called a Release Time court ruling. It's Federal Court rulings that say you can release—that's the word "release"—release kids from school, public school, for a religious class of their choice. It could be Muslim, could be Jewish. We are Bible to School, with my organization. We are the non-denominational Christian arm of that. The Bible used to be a reader in school way back when, and they took it out. In the early 1900s, these Release Time rulings happened and they said, "Well, kids aren't going to be getting religion anymore in school, so let's give that to the community and they can release them." There's three things that make it legal federally all across the country, and that is they have to be off-site, they have to be parental permission, and they can't cost the taxpayer any money. Those three things, when that happens, you can do that in all 50 states.
Jim Daly: That's terrific. Again, that's opt-in, as we would say, so the parents have to allow their kids to go do this. But all 50 states are required by law to do this. What's the limiting factor? Why isn't every school doing this?
Corey Pennypacker: Well, I think it's a lot why I'm here today. People don't know about it. They don't know about it and I appreciate you having me on because, yes, you can do this. My organization has been doing this for over 45 years. There's other organizations around the country that have been doing it for 80 years. The U.S. Supreme—people ask me a lot, "Was that ever challenged?" In 1952 it was, and the U.S. Supreme Court upheld it. So, it definitely is something you can do. Again, it has to be off-site, parental permission, and no tax dollars.
Jim Daly: The ACLU hasn't been able to get that out of school in terms of choices by the parents.
Corey Pennypacker: Right. It's something the parents want.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you this just to get this out of the way because it's intriguing to me. I've thought, maybe after I retire from Focus, I'll get one started in Colorado Springs. I want to make sure everybody knows that that's something you can do in your community. There's so many things like this if we just did them, every school would have that option if Christians stepped up and said, "I'll start that volunteer program and I'll go do that." How did that start for you? You started as a volunteer at Bible to School.
Corey Pennypacker: I did. I started as a volunteer. First of all, I was a children's ministry director. So I left there, a friend asked me, "You've got to come see this." I went and I'm like, "Wait a minute. I used to wait for kids to come to me, and now I get to go to the kids where they are in the middle of the week, in the middle of a school day." It's no muss, no fuss, and the kids come. What's amazing is that with what we do, it's half the kids have no church home. I saw that with a little boy, Gabriel. He grabbed my heart. He was a little blonde, blue-eyed little boy, curly hair. He lived with his grandmother. He was in third grade and he was in my small group. He came week after week. He did not know anything about God before he came. One day he accepted Christ as his savior in the large group part. He comes barreling back to my table with a big smile. I said, "Gabriel, tell me about that. You accepted Christ as your savior." He said, "Yes, I did." I said, "Tell me about that." He said something I will never forget. I get choked up every time I talk about it. He said, "I've always wanted to know how to get to heaven, but no one's ever told me."
Jim Daly: And he's in third grade. There's some 70, 80-year-olds that ask that question.
Corey Pennypacker: It is a definite—they don't know. Probably every week in Bible to School, kids say, "Who's God? I've never heard of Him," or they think Jesus is a swear word. It is definitely—70% of the country doesn't go to church. So these kids aren't hearing it anywhere. We think of *Little House on the Prairie* and all those shows that used to have it all in there. It's definitely—they're not seeing it anywhere.
Jim Daly: Corey, again, I'm going to say, that's our fault as the church because, again, the law allows us to do this, but not every school has this. That's a shame. We should be, as the Christian community, we should be engaged. There should be one or more—8, 10 people here in Colorado Springs who are willing to do this for every school. I don't know how many elementary schools. This is second to fifth grade, right?
Corey Pennypacker: Yes.
Jim Daly: What does that—it's a weekly meeting? Just talk us through what the typical week might look like.
Corey Pennypacker: The volunteers get together, they set up the room near a church—it's in a church off-site, within a 10-minute walk or a 10-minute drive of the school. Then they go and get the kids. The kids—it's usually over lunch and recess. They bring their lunch with them. We use the time right—I mean, we start it off, the small group leaders are like, "Hey, how was your week? We were praying for your grandmother last week. How was she doing?" They walk or they bus there. Then at the church, they're in small group tables. They come in, they have all their papers and their crinkly papers and all that. Then they have a large group lesson. 20 minutes of a large group lesson. There's a "think about it" question. So it's Jonah and the whale, and your "think about it" question is, "How does God give second chances?" So they teach Jonah. It's all hands-on. They get inside of the belly of a whale. We do hands-on things like VBS. It is science experiments. You act out the Bible story. Then they go into small group. They say, "How did God give Jonah second chances?" Then they say, "Well, how does God give you second chances?" They do this and then we go into a worship time. So you have large group, small group, worship time. But that "think about it" question, that small group is very unique to Bible to School. In the country, there's really not a lot of programs that do it this way. I really believe that the Gospel is transmitted through relationships. So you build those relationships every week. These kids have a safe place to ask spiritual questions. That's what you were saying. That's what the church is about. We know the kids want to know three things. They want to know, "Where did I come from? What's my purpose? And what happens after I die?"
Jim Daly: I think every human being asks that question or those three questions and probably more. In that context, the overall program is about 30 minutes then or an hour?
Corey Pennypacker: An hour. It's one hour. That includes travel time.
Jim Daly: Back and forth, and hopefully it's a church that's nearby the school, obviously. In that context, second to fifth grade, why is that the critical stage and what you concentrate on?
Corey Pennypacker: Barna says this, 63% of all Christians come to know Christ before the age of 14. So it's like a 4 to 14 window they say. That's when their actual brains are developing their morals and values. So you've got clay that you're working with. They are wide open. You were just talking about kids say everything on their mind. Well, they are really processing this and learning this. So it is the time for kids to accept Christ as their savior. We have one little boy, he said, "I never knew God made me." He just couldn't even believe that there was somebody who made him and created him. He just—these kids blossom and light up when they find out that God made them, God loves them, God has a plan and a purpose for their life, and Jesus Christ died for their sins and they can be in heaven with Him someday. These are the things that kids need to know. I know that we were talking about depression and all that. There was a study called Hardwired to Connect. Dartmouth University did a study—it's a secular university that did this—and they said that kids are hardwired to connect socially, spiritually, and that really helps them bring down that stress, bring down that anxiety. Kids are mind, body, and soul. When you don't really have to process that—spiritual questions, have a safe place to process that—then that really ups the anxiety. They even said that if kids are in a religious program like Bible to School is, then they do better in school.
John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.
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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's programming. Stories are so grabbing. You had a little girl who brought a notebook, I think, and she was judiciously taking notes and you talked to her. What happened with that little girl?
Corey Pennypacker: Our program, like I said, is hands-on and we don't actually have notebooks. But she brought hers and she was writing and writing and writing. Then she went to her small group and she was writing and writing and writing. Finally, her small group leader said, "What are you doing?" She said, "Well, my dad doesn't know who God is and I want to be able to tell him."
Jim Daly: That's so sweet.
Corey Pennypacker: I love how these kids just want—like you were saying about their faith, they want to know about God, they want to tell everybody they know about God. They bring their friends and that's why I said 50 to 60% of the kids that come to Bible to School have no church home. I really believe that parents want good things for their kids. Even if they're Christian or not Christian, and I know Dr. Dobson years ago said that and I really grabbed onto that. This is a good thing they see and they sign them up. That's why we are hitting a target market that nobody else is hitting. These kids are not going to go to a church. But we can link them to a church. We had a parent survey done a couple years ago and about 15% of our parents started going to church after they went to Bible to School. This year, I'm proud to announce that, only God, 18% of the parents—so it's going up. I just really believe that this kind of program is an on-ramp to church attendance.
Jim Daly: Again, I want to say this because it's so obvious, and maybe someone's just jumped into the conversation. Yeah, following the Lord brings incredible fruit—love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy, long-suffering. I mean, these are wonderful attributes. Those that fight against that, it's ridiculous. Then those that enjoy the benefits of those fruit, it brings peace, God's shalom, to the home.
John Fuller: Corey, going back to family impact, you had indicated the story of Johnny really stood out because here's a boy who goes home and brings light and truth to his own family. Share that with us.
Corey Pennypacker: His mother told us that she was at the kitchen counter washing dishes and her home was struggling. She looked up and she said, "God, help me." Just then, Johnny came right behind her and said, "Mom, we need to go to church. We need Jesus." She saw that as God's answer. They went to church. Not only did she reconnect to the Lord herself, the rest of her family, most all of them got saved.
Jim Daly: That's kind of what it's all about.
Corey Pennypacker: She said he was relentless about going to church. "We need to go to church!" He's a great kid.
Jim Daly: My own wife Jean, in second grade, ironically, kind of the same zone that you concentrate on, second graders to fifth graders. She was a second grader in SoCal. She went to Release Time and accepted Christ at that little event and never gave up. I mean, she was with the Lord and has been with the Lord ever since, which is phenomenal. That's really the goal, to help these children, especially in today's culture, to have something that's eternal, something they can hold onto, and again, something that brings such positive benefits into their lives. Earlier I mentioned some of the problems in schools, the political and cultural agendas, etc. that are causing a lot of Christians to pull out of public school. When I think about it for myself, the parents that are saying, "What should we do?" Johnny, Maria, whomsoever, they're kindergarteners or third graders and they're concerned about the ideological push. More Christians are pulling their children out of school. What is your observation of that? Everybody has to make that decision for themselves because you don't want to gamble with your children's hearts. But how do you see things?
Corey Pennypacker: I often tell my daughters-in-law this, that they are the parents and they are the experts on their kids on whether they should be homeschooled or whether to go to Christian school or whether to go to public school. But in reality, 87% of all Christian parents send their kids to public school. So I get asked this question a lot of what do you do? How do you protect your kids from harmful cultural elements in the school system, in the public school system? I answer that question and I kind of flip it. I say, how can you prepare your children? Because preparation is protection. Things are going to come down the pike. You always should get on the school board, you always should be involved, know what your kids are learning, you should be involved. I was a very involved—my husband and I were very involved public school parents. But if you're going to put them in public school, be involved and prepare them with the Word of God. John 1:5: "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." So that whole preparation part of keeping the Word of God in front of them, get them involved in Bible to School, get them involved in a youth group, get them involved in church. Really foster those Christian friends, foster those Christian adults around them, and you've got a strong Christian that can light up the world.
John Fuller: Jim, as Corey's talking, I'm thinking about parents who might feel ill-equipped to help their children be a light because they're overwhelmed. We've tried to address that in the documentary and all the follow-up materials with Truth Rising.
Jim Daly: Truth Rising is a terrific documentary. It's free. You can go to the Focus website and watch it. It's about 90 minutes. But in addition to that, there's a four-part study done by John Stonestreet at Colson Center, which is really helpful to address these core issues. But the key thing in Truth Rising, what we're trying to do is encourage Christians to engage. Because that's the change. That's where we highlight four or five courageous people like Jack Phillips, who was the baker up in Denver that was taken to task, taken to court, taken to the Supreme Court to prove his right as a Christian to create artwork that fit with his faith. And also Chloe Cole, a detransitioner who is suing Blue Cross because she never received a negative statement from a doctor or psychiatrist that doing the sexual transition would be harmful to her. Now they're scrambling and they're backing up, both in Europe and the United States, to get out of doing that, the minor treatment of gender dysphoria. Man, that's a great thing that hospitals and others are beginning to not do that. But the point of the documentary is to encourage Christians to engage the culture and to be courageous. What you're doing is kind of similar to that. It's something again that we could all do in our towns, our cities, our little spots that we're in. We could go to the elementary school and create a volunteer program and get kids introduced to scripture. That's what's so exciting about this. Your story could have fit in Truth Rising as someone who was busy, had their own lives, doing their own thing, their kids were grown, and you're done. And yet you said, "No, I'm going to engage these second and fifth graders and show them the Gospel."
Corey Pennypacker: And we're going to equip people to do this all over the country.
Jim Daly: How do we do that? How can somebody listening today say, "Okay, I want to do this. I'm in Colorado, I'm in California, I'm wherever." How would they go about doing this?
Corey Pennypacker: They go to our website, bibletoschool.com. That's Bible, the number 2, school.com. We will help them start a program. There's a four-step process.
Jim Daly: So is it like in-a-box kind of thing? You can help us do that.
Corey Pennypacker: Yes. We have something called a membership toolbox. You become a member of Bible to School. It's a four-step process to become a member. Mainly what we do is help you build a team. We first help you build a team to become a member. That team is going to help you find the location. It's going to help you with possible transportation. Those people are leaders in your community are going to help you with finding, recruiting volunteers, like pastors. You're going to have business leaders that are going to help you with funding. So we really make it as easy as possible for you to get that team together. Then we have all the tools for you on that toolbox. We have over 300 tools. We have all the curriculum you need. We have live coaching for you. I wish I had live coaching when I started. But live coaching and we have a website for them as well. So anything—what you call plug-and-play—you can do this and we make it as easy as possible for that to happen.
Jim Daly: For pastors, I know we have many pastors who listen and we have an outreach for pastors as well to help their families, to help their congregations. What's the benefit for pastors engaging Bible to School?
Corey Pennypacker: When you ever talk about people coming to your church, it's always, "Well, somebody invited me. Somebody invited me." Well, let me tell you, when you get involved in Bible to School, you invite those children to your church. They're like, "Oh yeah, I'll come." There's VBS on-ramp there. There's just come and be in our church. It gets the kids in the church first of all. Second of all, it exposes them to other Christians that say, "Come visit me in my church." That's how kids get to church. That's how it works. That's why I call it an on-ramp to church attendance. Again, you're learning how to connect with the community. When a church partners with a local school, people pay attention. They really make a difference in the community. If you want to make a difference in your community, you go to the public school mission field, and that's right in your hometown.
John Fuller: I'm really pleased, Jim, that our church had an opportunity through a variety of circumstances to meet at a local school. Our team—there was a core team of people that really engaged with the school. They made a job of reaching out to the school administrators and the faculty and just supporting and trying to be a light for Christ in that way. You're encouraging all of us to look for opportunities to do that.
Corey Pennypacker: And the other thing is the churches work together. We're non-denominational. So it's so cool the body of Christ and all denominations working together for the kids.
Jim Daly: Let's end with Colson's story. You had a student, Colson. What happened with his little observation about Bible to School?
Corey Pennypacker: Colson went through our program and actually even led his friends to Christ. But he got into middle school and we interviewed him. He started his own Bible hour in his middle school.
Jim Daly: As an entrepreneur.
Corey Pennypacker: He was amazing. He had almost 90 kids. It was a worship service. He got everybody involved. He said to me, "You know, I always thought before Bible to School, I didn't know. I always thought school was school and church was church. I realized I can live my faith all week long."
Jim Daly: Corey, and that's right at the heart of the message. I think the culture that doesn't believe wants to silence us into no action. That what you believe is private, do it at home, just don't bring it into the public square. They're happy with that. But that's not what the Lord says. He says, take the Gospel to every end of the earth, right? To every corner. So that's our charge. We need to be careful not to take the bait of being comfortable by being silent and "you do what you do and I'll do what I do." That's what's so great about Colson and that story. Let's take this into public school. It's already gone through the courts. It's completely legal. Let's help kids better understand how they were made and in whose image they were made. Isn't that a great opportunity?
Corey Pennypacker: Yes. You can be on the front lines of watching kids' lives change and their families' lives change. It's a beautiful thing.
Jim Daly: Well, you've said it so well. Bible to School. Get engaged if your community—and there's only four states that they're in right now. So if you're in a state that's not doing it, a city that's not doing it, do it. Nobody else is going to step up. So why not get involved? Let's see all 50 states have a program like this where you can take kids off the property of the school, take them to a local church hopefully, spend an hour with them talking about the Lord, and then get those little tykes back to school. I think it's wonderful. What a wonderful way for us who are older, already done the parenting thing, to engage the culture and help it right itself because of spiritual awakening. That's the way to do it. So get in touch with us. Corey, thanks for being with us.
Corey Pennypacker: It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks.
John Fuller: It's incredible what God is able to do when we are faithful to serve Him and share His good news message, especially with children.
Jim Daly: Corey's organization, Bible to School, is really remarkable as an outreach. We're going to have all the details available at our website. Also, let me say, if you're interested in learning more about how you can join the fight for our children in public schools, for a gift of any amount, we're offering Corey's brand new book, *Backpack Faith: Helping Your Child Live Confidently for Jesus in Public School*. This is essential reading for parents and grandparents who want to equip their children and grandchildren to be salt and light in a dark culture. This book helps you to do that as a parent or loved one. When you get the book from Focus on the Family, your dollars aren't going to Amazon or pay shareholders. It's all going back to equip parents, help marriages and families across the country. In the past year alone, we've equipped 1.8 million families to thrive in Christ. I'm very proud of that. We've helped 173,000 people make decisions for Christ.
John Fuller: That's so wonderful.
Jim Daly: It is. That's generational impact for the kingdom of God and we're excited to have you partner with us as we equip more families every single day.
John Fuller: Join the support team today when you call 800-A-FAMILY. That's 800-232-6459. Or donate and get Corey's book, *Backpack Faith*, and find other help for your family at our website. That's focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
John Fuller: You're listening to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We'll take a quick break here and then return with another faith-building program for your family. Stay tuned.
Jim Daly: No matter what you're going through, you are not alone. Focus on the Family is here with you every step of the way. Our caring Christian counselors will listen, share biblical advice, connect you with resources, and pray with you. You can start your path toward healing today by requesting your free confidential consult. Call us at 1-800-A-FAMILY or visit us at focusonthefamily.com/gethelp.
John Fuller: Free up your schedule, live in the older house longer, drive the older car longer, spend less than you make, live on one income, save the second income. All those things help you have more time. Russ Crosson is here with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to discuss managing your finances with eternity in mind. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.
Jim Daly: I think managing work and family is one of the hardest things to do. It maybe shouldn't be that way. Maybe today Russ is going to tell us how to do that better. But I can remember that battle all the way along. Jean and I had our children a little later, but I was traveling around the world for Focus on the Family. It was exciting. I was helping to build the international effort. But I was gone like two, three weeks at a time. It took a lot to do that. Thankfully, the boys arrived just as I was concluding that big adventure and I was able to be home a lot more often. So that worked out for us. It was almost just a mistake. It's like God took us that way. It wasn't planned. I'm excited to help others think about it and plan for it rather than rely on just sheer maybe. We'll talk about that with our guest today.
John Fuller: Family takes a lot of intentionality and money is a part of that process. Russ Crosson is passionate about helping us think through these things. He's the Chief Vision Officer and senior partner of Blue Trust. He's helped families and couples be good financial stewards for over 40 years. Now he's captured some of his expertise and insights in a terrific book called *Your Life Well Spent: The Eternal Rewards of Investing Yourself and Your Money in Your Family*. Russ, welcome back. The folks really loved the last program we did with you on budgeting.
Russ Crosson: I'm glad this one may be better than that if they like budgeting. They should like this one. Thanks, Jim.
Jim Daly: It is kind of interesting that there was such a large response. You're obviously tapping a nerve just talking about how to budget in a godly way and the things to remember and things to do and that's what people responded to. Today we're going to talk about much more, but kind of like life plan.
Russ Crosson: I think the idea is that was budgeting and how to manage your money and make sure you spend less than you make. That was the punchline. But today we want to talk about why do you even want to do that? Why is that important? I would propose to us that what I've seen over four decades is that we manage our money not to have more money. Julie and I aren't on a budget to have more money. We manage our money to have more life. How do we begin to manage and use and spend our money to have more life? I like to say a life well spent is a life that earns and uses money to buy time to impact people. First and foremost, your family if you're married and have kids. Secondarily, other people. It's a life that focuses on the eternal in the realm of the temporal. So we live in a society that's just constantly telling us not to be content and also lying to us about this issue of money. Saying things like, "The more money you have, the more content you'll be, the more successful you are, the more you're worth as a person." The more money you have, and these things get us totally whacked out on balance. You mentioned earlier that it's the issue of money and families is really interesting because you start your career, you start your family at the same time. It's interesting. They both require the most time at the same time. Start to think about that when you finally get the big house and the money, you don't need it. When you needed it, you didn't have it. So we have to have the right perspective about this as a journey. So we spend less than we make not just to have more money, but to have more time and figure out how I can enjoy the trip. Richard Swenson in his book *Margin* said we need room to breathe, we need freedom to think. Our relationships are being starved to death by velocity and our children lay wounded on the ground run over by high-speed good intentions. We have to figure out this money thing so that we can hopefully have a chance to balance life.
Jim Daly: Well, in that context, give us some practical approaches. In your late 20s, let's say you're the married couple, maybe kids aren't here yet, but you're thinking about what you need to do. You buy the starter home, you already got your eye on what we might be able to buy by 35 or 40. Just describe attitude-wise how we get a hold of those appetites so we can live within our means and do the right thing.
Russ Crosson: Well, the longer-term your perspective, the better your decision. So if you think, "Okay, these decisions I'm making in my 20s..." So you're both working. One principle there is live on one income and save the other. Put some cement in the basement. Put some savings down. The other thing is get used to the fact that, hey, maybe we can stay in this starter home a little longer. Whoever had this idea of starter homes leading into bigger homes? That's one of the biggest stressors for couples is they think they've got to get bigger and bigger and that's back to some of this self-image trying to keep up with the Joneses. Hate to tell you, your kids don't really care where they live. What they care is if you are around a little bit. So it doesn't make any sense for me to keep buying bigger homes, buying newer cars. So practical speaking, I'd do it different. Julie and I, for example, we didn't have a dining room table for three years. We carried our sofa table into the dining room. It was because we were saving and trying to manage our money in such a way we didn't get out over our skis. So I think this idea that I don't have to impress anybody. I just need to figure out, how can I put some money in the bank, have some savings, spend less than I make, and not make these decisions? I think the two big ones are the house. You don't—where'd we get this idea of starter homes because we're going to a bigger home and then a bigger home? Guess what? When you're 40 or 50, there's nobody in it but you and your wife.
Jim Daly: So true. Why not be satisfied in what you're at and just see where things go whether or not you'll be able to afford that bigger house? I was made aware of a *60 Minutes* clip that was done where whoever the journalist was had six or seven successful women who had really bought into the feminist perspective. They had never married. They reached the top of corporate success and they were sitting in these big homes. The journalist said, "Can you explain to me, you're in this big home with big yards, but you're by yourself?" And they cried. The way I understood that story. That's an exaggeration, but it's what you're talking about.
Russ Crosson: Yeah, I mean the whole issue of, if you're blessed to be married and raising a family, then focus your attention there, not just on the money. I like to equate this to—I call that posterity. Posterity are the generations that come after us versus prosperity. That's usually what we think about prosperity is all the things we can buy with money. I think one of the things that's helped me is I never thought about this before until I began to get in this career and help couples. But we need to think about how do I use my money to invest in posterity, not just prosperity. It's a whole different perspective. The issue is when you start thinking that way, you will use your money differently and invest it in things that relate to your family.
Jim Daly: Russ, this isn't covered in your book, but I think it's relevant to culture today. This idea for some—not just women, but men too—don't get married and certainly don't have kids. Have a dog because it's easier. It frustrates me, being the head of a family ministry, to see so much of culture messaging that. You talk about be mindful of the messaging. That to me for us is one of the core problems in the culture that we've become so selfish that we don't even want to give up our time or our treasure to be married or raise a child or two or three.
Russ Crosson: Remember what I said earlier, a life well spent earns and uses money to buy time to impact people. So and I invest that money. Use it in such a way to impact people. So how do I invest if I don't have kids? How do I invest it in the people around me and invest in my community and things like this? So we need to begin to think about using our financial capital to invest in things that are going to matter. That's all that matters is posterity, it's legacy. We're all leaving a legacy.
Jim Daly: I don't want to lay that all on younger people, but there's a lot of fear in people too, younger people. It's expensive. $250,000, I think, was the last number I saw that you're going to spend on a child until they're 18. The culture is building fear into people like, "I can't afford that. I'm working at McDonald's and I'm only making $10 an hour."
Russ Crosson: Here's what will help you if you change your thinking from that being an expense to an investment. This has really helped me to realize that I can invest money in posterity-type things. So education for my kids, for example. You just mentioned going to cost a lot to educate my kids. If I think of that as an investment, not an expense, then all of a sudden it changes my thinking. I can put it in retirement, I can put it in another piece of real estate, I can buy a second home, you fill in the blank. But I could also invest in my family. That's been a paradigm shift for me. I used to consider some of the stuff I did with money as just an expense, but then when I thought, wait a minute, no, if I pay for that marriage retreat for my married son and his wife to go, that's an investment, not just an expense. Or if I pay for house help when the kids are young so my wife is not stressed out over the holiday, that's an investment, not just an expense. If you just change your paradigm to it being an investment and not just an expense, then some of this use of money will give you more time and it'll help you invest in what's really going to count for eternity.
Jim Daly: You touched on this, but the idea of capital being financial, spiritual, and social. Just hit those again. You said it quickly.
Russ Crosson: This whole book came about because I sat with people, they'd be in my office, they're worth lots of money, lots of financial capital, and tears would be streaming down their face. They didn't know their kids, didn't know their spouse, they had relational challenges. I realized that most people just invest their money in financial capital instruments—stocks, bonds, real estate, and so forth. But how do you invest in spiritual and social capital? Well, spiritual capital, it's like I said with my boys, I would pay them to do scripture memory or I'd pay them to read certain books and do a book report. That's an investment in their spiritual capital development. Social capital, how do I help them grow socially and learn a work ethic? Well, when I bought lawn equipment so they could start a lawn business, that was an investment so now they're able to start a business and begin to build some work ethic. I'll tell you a funny story about my recent posterity investment. I just repurposed my basketball court into a pickleball court. That's what everybody's doing. In my old life that would have been an expense, but I considered it a posterity investment investing in relationships. Then my neighbor called and said, "Hey, can I use your pickleball court for my 17-year-old son's birthday party?" So what I made was an investment, but now it's being able to be used in the community. People come over, I got a text just last week, "Hey, is the court open? Can we come play with my son and his friends from college?" So I think what's really helped me is to realize that my money can go into my 401k and my IRA and financial instruments. But I can also use it to build in spiritual and social capital.
John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.
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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's programming. Russ, you tell a story in the book about a family reunion because this caught my attention. Just the difference between a family in chaos and a family in shalom, in God's peace. I think the Montague family. What did you observe at this family reunion?
Russ Crosson: I flew up to Michigan years ago and what I observed was four generations of folks that had been intentional about passing on this idea of spiritual and social capital. Obviously, there was a lot of food, there were over 100 people there, they had a jet ski out on the lake that was there and I just observed that if we're intentional about passing on and thinking about investing in our family, not just financial capital, then that's a picture of what it could be for us. I came back from that thinking, "Okay, I'm going to start managing my money not just to have more money and to save more, but I'm going to send some of it on ahead by investing in some of these things we just talked about." Before that, I would have not thought of those as investments. I'd have thought of them as expenses or budget items. Maybe we talked about the B-word earlier. These really aren't budget items. I would encourage the listeners to put a posterity investment line in their plan. I think if you just start thinking, "Hey, some of this money I'm going to use to invest in my family," then I think it'll just change your thinking and it'll help you free you up. The other thing here is you have to keep a longer perspective to do this. We talked about balance. The other stressor on balance for young couples is they've been fed this lie that they have to be in a hurry to quit. So retirement is the goal. I would just say that not only are you starting your family, you're starting your career, being in a hurry to quit doesn't make any sense. So we just need to extend our time horizon. That will help you have some balance, help you realize—I hate to tell you this, I'm a financial guy and I understand compounding—but there were years I did not fund my retirement. You say, "Wait a minute, Russ, that's stupid." But I was paying off my house and I knew if I paid my house off, my expenses would go down, my budget wouldn't be as stressed, I'd have more time to coach my kids' ball teams and things like that. So it was intentional. Pay off the debt, lower my expenses, buy more time.
Jim Daly: I do want to press on that a little bit because I don't know a lot of people that manage that well, especially in your 30s and 40s. Because you do have a lot of expansion, you may have bought the house even if it's the starter home, you still have a mortgage payment. You start looking at that budget and you're going, "Wow." In addition to that, there's discussion points where if a mom wants to stay at home, you're going, "I don't know if we can do that." Speak to that whole basket of prioritization and again I'm thinking of the 30-somethings, 40-somethings. How to find the margin so you can be family?
Russ Crosson: Well, like I said earlier, Julie and I just chose to not buy some things. We chose to stay in the older house, we had the 10-year car plan. So I think you can find a way. This second income, we've bought the lie that we have to have a second income. No, go actually do the numbers and see because you'll probably find out it's really not contributing that much to the spendable income. The other thing is that paycheck you took home, what I found is most people just automatically have retirement taken out. So they haven't realized that they've made some decisions that they could go back and maybe cut it in half or cut it back just to the amount being matched. And like I did, just didn't even fund it for a few years when expenses were high. I've noticed that people just think that's a given. They think the retirement's a given and that's one of the first places people can look to maybe get some extra cash flow to do things. Let me just say one thing. I've met with more couples where they'll be sitting on our couch and the husband says, "Look at all this money we have in retirement." And the wife just wants some cash. You can't buy kids' braces with retirement funds. I've had people come in with $100,000 in a 401k and no money in the bank. So it's better to have $60,000 in your 401k and $20,000 in the bank, right? A little bit less net worth, you paid some tax. So I think that one of the biggest places you can get some freedom is to make sure you're not overfunding retirement too soon. I mean, I've just seen it and we just think, wow, that's just a given. This is where guys and gals, I've seen guys, they're so impressed, "Hey honey, look here, I have all this money in retirement." She doesn't care. Show me some cash. Or show me some time.
Jim Daly: That's what we deal with here at Focus on the Family. It's typically that issue. The couples that don't have children—there's lots of reasons. Some might be a decision, I get it. I think you should, but other couples can't have kids and they want kids. For those couples who are in that place, what can they do to invest in posterity when they're not going to be able to have children?
Russ Crosson: Well, look around. Maybe there's a parachurch, maybe young life or there's something at your church. You can invest in people. You can invest in maybe your neighbors. Use some of that financial capital to invest in some—just keep your antenna up and ask God to show you. Julie and I just had this happen just two days ago. This gal calls and says, "Hey, our septic is out. We're trying to have this women's ministry in our home and I'm just hoping the toilets work. We don't have the money." Just yesterday, Jim, this is a real-life story, I told Julie, "Write a check for 5 grand and send it to them and say we want you to make sure you can still have ministry and the toilets will flush when this women's—she has 16 women coming to her home." So I would just say if you don't have kids, just look around and have this generous mindset to where if you have the financial capability to do it instead of just building bigger piles, invest in stuff. So we invested in a septic yesterday.
Jim Daly: I was going to give you credit for that. Not many donors are excited about investing in toilets, so way to go!
Russ Crosson: Well, let me say one other thing about that. That's not deductible, Jim. And I would say to donors, it's okay. Some of the most fun generosity Julie and I do is not deductible because you look around and find needs. Maybe it's that waitress or the cleaning lady when you pick up your dry cleaning, whatever it is.
John Fuller: Go back a bit, Russ, to an earlier day where you and your wife were raising kids and you had those challenges. Did you have some bumps that you hit that through the school of hard knocks you learned some lessons?
Russ Crosson: Yes, we did. This is where I—we just got caught up in the sports thing for kids. We'd find ourselves chasing our tail, right? Running here, running there, running all over the place. So we finally sat down one day and said, "Why are we doing this? Why don't we go camping or why don't we spend some time on the weekends with the kids rather than running off to this?" We just got caught up in it. So I think, John, we wrote our sports philosophy. I would encourage folks to really think about that, especially when their kids are younger. Don't just get caught up in this youth sports industrial complex.
Jim Daly: And how did the kids respond to camping as opposed to sports?
Russ Crosson: They—I mean, they were only doing the stuff because we were taking them. They didn't care. They loved the camping a lot more. I wish I would have started it earlier. But we got our Saturdays back, we wrote our sports philosophy and gave us some more time. So I think that was one of the biggest things that we were getting out of balance. Plus, we had to learn to say no to a lot of things. So that was one of the things I talk about in the book. No is a perfectly legitimate answer to things. We talked about time replacement. One of the chapters in the book talks about time replacement. If we're going to say yes to something, what's going out? And it took a while because Julie and I are both Type A, choleric producer-type people and so, but yeah, saying no to perfectly good things and then writing our sports philosophy at that stage when they were five to ten really helped us.
Jim Daly: Sometimes with travel schedules, one of the things I did years ago when the boys were probably eight and six, right in that area, I realized I really don't have to have a busy summer travel schedule because most of the donors at Focus and you can control speaking engagements and things like that. So I kind of put a hiatus on travel between Memorial Day and Labor Day. And it sank into my boys so well that I remember a March that was very busy, I traveled a lot and I think Troy was probably eleven and he said, "Oh dad, that's okay," because I was feeling bad like I'm not here much right now. He goes, "Oh dad, that's okay, we got the summer right around the corner." I was like, okay, he got it. But he felt valued, even though I was busy in March, he knew that May was around the corner and we'd start doing the family camping and those things. But finding ways to look through your children's eyes to say how do they know I love them?
Russ Crosson: Most of our education of our kids is as we cart them from one largely irrelevant activity to the next they look at the back of our heads. Okay? That's not good. So this you freeing up your schedule, and that's why managing your money is to have more time, not more money. Free up your schedule, live in the older house longer, drive the older car longer, spend less than you make, live on one income, save the second income, all those things help you have more time and just being there. Think about it, you go to Africa, they don't have starter huts. Back to your illustration earlier about the people of the boat. We were over there and these kids are playing with a battery. I just think that it's time for a different perspective and the perspective is, okay, why am I managing my money? To have more life to get more time so I can focus on spiritual and social capital being developed in my kids, not just financial capital. The world's told you, "No, you're only successful if you have a bigger house and the more you have and all that." That's the other thing I had to learn. Joshua 1:8 says, "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth. You should meditate on it day and night and be careful to do according to all that is written in it, and then your way will be prosperous and everything you do you'll have success." So Jim, I used to read that and think, "Joshua 1:8, I'm going to have money." But read it more slowly. What's the Bible say? "Love your wife as Christ loved the church, you're successful. Deuteronomy 8, train up your kids." Says do according to what's written in here and then you're successful. So true success has nothing to do with money. Has to do with doing what the Bible says which is love my wife, train up my children in the way they should go, work heartily for my employer (Colossians 3:23). So we have bought the wrong definition of success which has really exacerbated the problem of balance. So once I began to understand, wait a minute, I can be successful and not have money. Yeah. But see, our language betrays us. You go to church, "They have a successful business, that person's successful." Did you ever go up and say, "Man, I'm seeing how you're raising your kids, I'm seeing... Jim, you were successful doing that summer thing." That was a real successful move on your part. So we have to really realize that we have bought the world's lie. See, we live—lie or truth—and the world says you're successful if you have money. No, you're successful you do what God's called you to do.
Jim Daly: So developing that wisdom to be able to discern those truths. As an older man now, talk to your 25-year-old self. What are you saying to that younger appetite, the enticement to make money which is going to take time, but realizing that's not the goal?
Russ Crosson: I would just say, let me just show you the end of the story. See, and what I've been sharing here and the reason we wrote this book, I wrote this book as a timeout. Hey, manage your money so you don't get end of your life and sit like those guys that had $10 million in my office with tears streaming down their face. Jim, this is why I wrote the book, was to say, hey everybody, timeout. You manage your money so that you don't get end of your life and have regrets because these people had regrets because they bought the lie that it was all about the money, my self-worth, my success, the more I have the more content I'll be and they bought that lie. I'm saying if you're in your 20s, you get a chance to start off on the right path. But guess what? Julie and I didn't have a dining room table, we lived in an older house longer. You'll have to do things different than your friends, but you are not going to regret it. You are not going to regret it, I can guarantee that.
Jim Daly: I so appreciate that. That was Jean and I. I mean, we slept on the floor, I'd come back from Japan, we got married, and I threw blankets on the floor and I said, "This is our futon." And we didn't have a dining room table for like a year and a half. We found one for $99.99 and it was just so we could sit and eat together. But it was slow growing. I so appreciate that and Russ, what you've talked about, we need to tune down or turn down the world's voices to us to say this is how we gotta do it. This is all about right thinking. And we either get our truth from the world or from the Word of God. And the truth is that money's not a measure of self-worth, it's not a measure of success, it's not a measure of contentment. The truth is retirement is not the goal of working. The truth is your kids don't need all the stuff you didn't have, they need more of you and less of your stuff. And so since we've bought those lies, as I talk about in the book, we get out of balance. And so the call is, hey wait a minute everybody, let's just slow down. Think about it. If you don't think you're trying to retire by 55 or 65, you have another 10 years you're thinking, then you don't have to put as much in retirement when you're 30. And I would just say that that's the paradigm shift. I've been told—this book's been out a while—that that's the paradigm shift. They said, "Wait a minute, this book's not about money. It's about my life." And I've had people say it's totally changed their paradigm and their way to think because it's like they never thought that way. I'm a financial guy, right? I'm supposed to be talking about building bigger piles and managing it. No, no. You invest that pile in what's really going to count for eternity.
Jim Daly: Russ, that sums it up. I mean, the title, *Your Life Well Spent*, is what it's all about. I just want to say thank you for being with us today, thank you for the reminder to do the right thing and to think the right way. If you're in that spot—I don't care what decade you're in, the 20s, the 30s, the 60s, maybe even the 70s—we got to think differently about spending time. Yeah, as a grandparent, what are those grandkids going to remember about you? This book is a great reminder on the things that we need to say and think and do to invest in posterity, as Russ has said. So thanks for being with us.
Russ Crosson: Well Jim, thanks, and I would just sum it up by saying consider posterity investment in your financial planning, not just prosperity investment.
Jim Daly: I love it. Get a copy, contact us, make a gift into the ministry here and we'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thanks for investing in others.
John Fuller: You can do that by calling 800-A-FAMILY. That's 800-232-6459. Or stop by our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
John Fuller: You're listening to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We'll take a quick break here and then return with another faith-building program for your family. Stay tuned.